Just recently got busted for possession (of shed antlers), sold my NIV bibles to bond out. Tried to sell my KJV, but I couldn't get anything for them. :)
I've been reading everyones posts, just haven't been posting. I've been kinda scared with JamesCharles lurking around, nah, just trying to get caught up on schoolwork. Only a couple of weeks left.
I do have a question that maybe my brethren can shed some knowledge on, this includes you Bro. JamesCharles :)
Why did Jesus breathe on His disciples and say, "receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22)
Some charismatics use this verse to try to say these disciples "got saved," (wow). The most common thought that I've come across is that this was a prelude to the day of Pentecost. What is meant by "prelude?" I know the definition, but what are they saying, that they got a taste, a sample and then it was taken away: when? where?
What are your thoughts? I'll be waiting for your posts while I finish my community service.
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EMPOWERING BY COMING UPON
ReplyDelete(Luke 1:35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Luke 2:25) And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
(John 1:33) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
(Luke 3:22) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
(Acts 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(Acts 15:28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(Acts 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
ACTS 2:38
The day of Pentecost was just a specific beginning for a specific way the Holy Ghost would empower the church. This was the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift would continue to be given until the Word was completed.
JOHN 20
If John has a record of the Great Commission given in Matthew 28:18-20, though some may disagree, I'd believe John 20:22-23 is it. It is a commissioning, only it seems the final transition point for the empowering of the church coming from Jesus, and not coming from the Spirit. The Holy Ghost had rested on Jesus, and Jesus empowered the church in her works. Now, Jesus breathed (pmeuma, spirit?) the Holy Ghost to them (either symbolically or in reality), and the Spirit came upon them in empowering as He did in the verses above.
As something you may or may not like to look into, look at the Imperative verb of receiving the power. It's 2nd Aorist. No point here, just pointing out it isn't present or future. Emphasis on the simple completed action rather than the timing.
KJV Study Bible has this note: "Here the disciples are annointed by Holy Spirit as a preliminary to Acts 2....soon the Holy Spirit would come and permanently abide with them (Acts 2)."
ReplyDeleteThis has always been a tough passage for me to entirely & specifically "come to grips with."
(the commentators seem to just stab at it too)
Perhaps this event expanded their awareness of the power and person of Christ and helped prepare them for the Day of Pentecost.
Passages like this take me to Hebrews 9:5
things "of which we cannot now speak particulary"
Note: the biggest shed I've ever found was in a 3 acre thicket about 200 yards from my grandparents house. That buck probably watched us load up and go to our lease for years before he died of laughter at a ripe old age.
"ACTS 2:38
ReplyDeleteThe day of Pentecost was just a specific beginning for a specific way the Holy Ghost would empower the church. This was the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift would continue to be given until the Word was completed." What do you mean by this statement?
Are you saying that churches are not empowered now, or that the spiritual gifts which accompanied the baptism with the Holy Ghost ended with the completion of the Word? I know what you mean, just didn't sound right:)
By the way, I've never heard the gift of the Holy Ghost defined that way, most usually define it as (speaking in tongues) or (salvation), I tend to lean toward the latter. Not debating, just digging:)
If this empowerment happened at this point, why did it happen again on the day of Pentecost?
If they were already empowered with the Holy Ghost, why did they wait on the promise of the Spirit?
Just some thoughts, and yes I am interested in any info you can throw my way, Bro. James
IMO, it was merely symbolic. The empowering of the church Jesus built that came on the Day of Pentecost was completed on that day - no down payment before and notheing else to come later. They got all there was to get at that time.
ReplyDeleteEmpowerment didn't happen "again", it just happened in a different way. Instead of Jesus empowering them in service, the Holy Spirit did. He continues to do so until now. The Day of Pentecost and the following similar examples were used for a specific purpose. I believe God was showing what happened was His work (with all the Gentiles being saved.) The "promise" of the Spirit they waited on was in reference to the specific work I just described, not the empowering.
ReplyDeleteIf indeed one can make the "empowering" of the church start on Pentecost, then the church lacked power from the time Jesus ascended until them. Wouldn't this mean the church ceased to exist?
No, but the church was told to wait on the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4), and that's what they did. And they didn't receive power "promise" until the day of Pentecost.
ReplyDeleteAc 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(The "promise" of the Spirit they waited on was in reference to the specific work I just described, not the empowering.)
shall-future tense
Let me clarify that you said, (The "promise" of the Spirit they waited on was in reference to the specific work I just described, not the empowering.) Acts 1:4 states they hadn't received the promise yet.
ReplyDeleteExactly. The promise was what? The specific kind of empowering the Holy Spirit did. They had already received indwelling by the HS, and empowerment by Jesus (cast out devils, etc), but now they had a specific kind and special kind of empowering and comforting the Holy Spirit would come give.
ReplyDeleteThey had already received power to cast out devils, but they had not received the empowering Jesus promised (He promised the empowering after they already had power). Their power and the empowering are 2 different things.
ReplyDeleteThe church could not cease to exist because of Jesus' promise of Matt. 16:18. Faulty logic.
ReplyDeleteNo, my friend. I think we agree. I'm simply saying if this was referring to empowering in general, then the church had no power before. If this were the case, there was no church. If so, then you'd have the church of God being a powerless church.
ReplyDeleteIt is as you said, the church had been empowered by Jesus before, and now they were receiving a very specific kind of empowering, the kind promised. We agree. I guess I just didn't make it clear enough. I don't guess I can in typing. What I was trying to point out is that the church's power is NOT only from the promise. The promise was a specific kind or type or even time of empowering, not the only power the church has or has had.
Just a hungry kid getting a nugget.
ReplyDelete